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	<title>Comments on: Why can&#8217;t sysadmins build networks?</title>
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	<link>http://blog.loftninjas.org/2009/04/25/why-cant-sysadmins-build-networks/</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 12:19:21 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Tom H</title>
		<link>http://blog.loftninjas.org/2009/04/25/why-cant-sysadmins-build-networks/comment-page-1/#comment-1717</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 16:09:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.loftninjas.org/?p=317#comment-1717</guid>
		<description>Bryan.. lol..!  I see the L2 switch mess all the time on my customer networks.  They seem to think computers need ports, and connect the swithes and you are good to go.  Getting my customer to understand WHY a hierarchal model is much better for their network is the hard part.  I usually tell them its more scalable.. faster.. easier to manage.. oh and copying files is faster. :)  They never go for it.  Anyway I feel your pain. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bryan.. lol..!  I see the L2 switch mess all the time on my customer networks.  They seem to think computers need ports, and connect the swithes and you are good to go.  Getting my customer to understand WHY a hierarchal model is much better for their network is the hard part.  I usually tell them its more scalable.. faster.. easier to manage.. oh and copying files is faster. <img src='http://blog.loftninjas.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   They never go for it.  Anyway I feel your pain. <img src='http://blog.loftninjas.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: mrb</title>
		<link>http://blog.loftninjas.org/2009/04/25/why-cant-sysadmins-build-networks/comment-page-1/#comment-1704</link>
		<dc:creator>mrb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:40:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.loftninjas.org/?p=317#comment-1704</guid>
		<description>True, live migration is a very valid reason for wanting a SAN...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True, live migration is a very valid reason for wanting a SAN&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: btm</title>
		<link>http://blog.loftninjas.org/2009/04/25/why-cant-sysadmins-build-networks/comment-page-1/#comment-1703</link>
		<dc:creator>btm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 16:49:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.loftninjas.org/?p=317#comment-1703</guid>
		<description>My comments were sourced from memorable moments with colleagues in the past who had formed judgments about technologies because they had problems with them that they failed to understand. &lt;em&gt;It is wrong to deploy technology for technology sake&lt;/em&gt;, granted there are dangers with storing data on a SAN that don&#039;t exist when you do not but there are benefits as well and these must be considered.

Many clustered technologies require the use of some kind of shared storage. You can go with an enterprise class SAN, or build something out by hand with technology like DRBD, but you need to have multiple hosts able to access the same data at once.

This particular discussion was about moving virtual machine images to shared storage. In particular, my colleague reacted like it was some crazy idea I had cooked up, rather than standard practice in enterprise environments. Sure, it is simple and easy to keep all the images stored on the local hosts, but you lose benefits like live migration which are pretty useful. &lt;em&gt;The irony is that you usually leverage a SAN to avoid having a SPOF for whatever service is using your storage&lt;/em&gt;, and if you&#039;re worried about the SAN you&#039;re ignoring that fact. It is judgmental to call the SAN device a SPOF without learning about the long list of redundant devices in it, including power supplies, controllers and ethernet interfaces. 

Which emphasizes my earlier point, you need to know why something works, not just that it does or does not for you at the moment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My comments were sourced from memorable moments with colleagues in the past who had formed judgments about technologies because they had problems with them that they failed to understand. <em>It is wrong to deploy technology for technology sake</em>, granted there are dangers with storing data on a SAN that don&#8217;t exist when you do not but there are benefits as well and these must be considered.</p>
<p>Many clustered technologies require the use of some kind of shared storage. You can go with an enterprise class SAN, or build something out by hand with technology like DRBD, but you need to have multiple hosts able to access the same data at once.</p>
<p>This particular discussion was about moving virtual machine images to shared storage. In particular, my colleague reacted like it was some crazy idea I had cooked up, rather than standard practice in enterprise environments. Sure, it is simple and easy to keep all the images stored on the local hosts, but you lose benefits like live migration which are pretty useful. <em>The irony is that you usually leverage a SAN to avoid having a SPOF for whatever service is using your storage</em>, and if you&#8217;re worried about the SAN you&#8217;re ignoring that fact. It is judgmental to call the SAN device a SPOF without learning about the long list of redundant devices in it, including power supplies, controllers and ethernet interfaces. </p>
<p>Which emphasizes my earlier point, you need to know why something works, not just that it does or does not for you at the moment.</p>
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		<title>By: mrb</title>
		<link>http://blog.loftninjas.org/2009/04/25/why-cant-sysadmins-build-networks/comment-page-1/#comment-1702</link>
		<dc:creator>mrb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 05:29:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.loftninjas.org/?p=317#comment-1702</guid>
		<description>Plus SANs are the polar opposite of the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) philosophy.

I am for example a huge fan of running ZFS on local SATA disks. This technology stack is dead simple: ZFS combines the block layer &amp; fs layer in one, and standard SATA chips these day all implement the same well-known AHCI hw interface. That&#039;s it. It works great. I use that tech stack at home, at work, etc. Now read the ZFS mailing list, there are many stories of sysadmins trying to deploy storage technologies in their companies. The *vast* majority of people having any sort of problems are those that employ the most complex technologies involving SANs, iSCSI, FC switches, etc; there are people experiencing bugs in SAN devices ignoring SCSI commands to flush caches, etc. It is painfully obvious to me that the bigger your tech stack is, the bigger the amount of money you will waste on debugging and deploying it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Plus SANs are the polar opposite of the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) philosophy.</p>
<p>I am for example a huge fan of running ZFS on local SATA disks. This technology stack is dead simple: ZFS combines the block layer &amp; fs layer in one, and standard SATA chips these day all implement the same well-known AHCI hw interface. That&#8217;s it. It works great. I use that tech stack at home, at work, etc. Now read the ZFS mailing list, there are many stories of sysadmins trying to deploy storage technologies in their companies. The *vast* majority of people having any sort of problems are those that employ the most complex technologies involving SANs, iSCSI, FC switches, etc; there are people experiencing bugs in SAN devices ignoring SCSI commands to flush caches, etc. It is painfully obvious to me that the bigger your tech stack is, the bigger the amount of money you will waste on debugging and deploying it is.</p>
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		<title>By: mrb</title>
		<link>http://blog.loftninjas.org/2009/04/25/why-cant-sysadmins-build-networks/comment-page-1/#comment-1701</link>
		<dc:creator>mrb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 05:21:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.loftninjas.org/?p=317#comment-1701</guid>
		<description>I am interested by your comment about SANs. True they don&#039;t necessarily create SPOF, however:
- they are *significantly* more expensive than designs using regular local hard drives (more than 10 times the price per GB or per MB/s or per IOPS)
- they are significantly harder to maintain
- they tend to create throughput bottlenecks by concentrating all the hard drives in a single (or small number of) location(s)
- they tend to lock you into a vendor because when you start building a SAN, the only way to extend it is to buy again from the same vendor. Switching vendor would require rebuilding a 2nd independent SAN

You can probably tell by now that I am strongly anti-SAN :D That said, I would be interested to hear some of your viewpoints.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am interested by your comment about SANs. True they don&#8217;t necessarily create SPOF, however:<br />
- they are *significantly* more expensive than designs using regular local hard drives (more than 10 times the price per GB or per MB/s or per IOPS)<br />
- they are significantly harder to maintain<br />
- they tend to create throughput bottlenecks by concentrating all the hard drives in a single (or small number of) location(s)<br />
- they tend to lock you into a vendor because when you start building a SAN, the only way to extend it is to buy again from the same vendor. Switching vendor would require rebuilding a 2nd independent SAN</p>
<p>You can probably tell by now that I am strongly anti-SAN <img src='http://blog.loftninjas.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' />  That said, I would be interested to hear some of your viewpoints.</p>
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		<title>By: macros</title>
		<link>http://blog.loftninjas.org/2009/04/25/why-cant-sysadmins-build-networks/comment-page-1/#comment-1700</link>
		<dc:creator>macros</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:54:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.loftninjas.org/?p=317#comment-1700</guid>
		<description>We have a simple goal when doing network design, strive to not be embarassed when we grow large enough to hire a real network engineer :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We have a simple goal when doing network design, strive to not be embarassed when we grow large enough to hire a real network engineer <img src='http://blog.loftninjas.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: stretch</title>
		<link>http://blog.loftninjas.org/2009/04/25/why-cant-sysadmins-build-networks/comment-page-1/#comment-1698</link>
		<dc:creator>stretch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 14:29:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.loftninjas.org/?p=317#comment-1698</guid>
		<description>Nicely done! That last line in particular should be stamped into the mind of anyone who comes close to a switch or router.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicely done! That last line in particular should be stamped into the mind of anyone who comes close to a switch or router.</p>
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